Safe Haven

Jinae’s moment begins in one of the heaviest spots in healthcare: sitting alongside a grieving individual in the immediate aftermath of loss. As an administrator in a new role, Jinae was presented with a situation for which no training can prepare. Forms and procedures were set aside to allow for a sacred space of compassion, tears, and prayer. She reflects on the anxiety and emotional weight of accompanying others through grief. Although Boundless Moments often explores the experiences of clinicians and patients, Jinae’s story offers up a reminder that healing presence is not limited to traditional caregiving roles. And while the story itself is undeniably somber, you’ll quickly discover that the spirit of our conversation is warm, hopeful, and joyful — a reflection of Jinae’s radiant personality and the genuine connections she makes with those around her.

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Transcript

Prelude

Jinae Stoudemire (00:00)

And she, she ended up busting out in tears and was talking about how she'll miss him and everything. And we just had that moment to where she started to wanting to pray and give me a hug and all that. And it was just a great moment where we just kind of sat and comforted each other.

Show Introduction

Nate Houchens (00:44)

Hi and welcome to Boundless Moments, the storytelling podcast that brings sacred moments to life through the voices of those who lived them. I'm Nathan Houchens. Support for Boundless Moments comes from the Sacred Moments Initiative. 

At Boundless Moments, we are careful to ensure that all stories comply with healthcare privacy laws. Details may have been changed to ensure patient confidentiality.

All views expressed are those of the person speaking and not their employer.

Some stories featured on Boundless Moments may contain themes or content that could be upsetting for some listeners. We encourage you to use discretion and take care of yourself while listening.

Introduction: Jinae Stoudemire

Nate Houchens (01:27)

Jinae Stoudemire is a graduate of Oakland University where she earned a Bachelor's degree in Health Science. She has worked at the VA Ann Arbor Healthcare System for 16 years in a variety of roles and currently serves as an Administrative Officer. She is also the creator and host of The Honest Room, a space centered around authentic conversation, emotional safety, and human connection. Jinae is passionate about personal growth, self-trust, and creating spaces where people feel seen, heard, and valued. 

Introduction: Safe Haven

Nate Houchens (01:59)

Jinae's moment begins in one of the heaviest spots in healthcare: Sitting alongside a grieving individual in the immediate aftermath of loss. As an administrator in a new role, Jinae was presented with a situation for which no training can prepare. Forms and procedures were set aside to allow for a sacred space of compassion, tears, and prayer. She reflects on the anxiety and emotional weight of accompanying others through grief. 

Although Boundless Moments often explores the experiences of clinicians and patients, Jinae's story offers up a reminder that healing presence is not limited to traditional caregiving roles. And while the story itself is undeniably somber, you'll quickly discover that the spirit of our conversation is warm, hopeful, and joyful, a reflection of Jinae's radiant personality and the genuine connections she makes with those around her.

The Story: Safe Haven

Jinae Stoudemire (03:13)

My sacred moment is about this time that I was working as AOD, which is an Administrative Officer of the Day, let's be clear. And I had recently gotten this position, transitioning from the Hematology Oncology department at the VA. So the AOD essentially, you're doing everything admin. And one of the responsibilities was talking to grieving families after their loved ones pass. Now remind you, I am in a hospital so this is like immediately after the passing. So, and I was tasked to do the paperwork. This is organ donation. This is funeral homes. This is how to release the body.

It's a difficult conversation and this is not a conversation that I was the most comfortable having, we'll say, this is… I don't know too many people who would be immediately comfortable with this. So I wanna say either I was right out of training, I feel like I was right out of training because I was alone by myself. So I was out of training and I got a call and it was one of these tasks. Among the many, but it was… I got a call that a patient had passed and that their wife was coming down. 

I'm going to give you some insider information about myself. I was worried. Like, this is, out of all the tasks. I can do billing, I could do admin, transfers, policy, I could do it all. This was the one thing I was worried about. 

When I got the name of the patient, I was in shock because it was a… It was a patient that I had known from Hematology Oncology. So this is a patient that I was actually familiar with. 

And I had them come down and took them into a back room so we can have some privacy. Her and I greeted each other. Of course she recognized me as well. And we talked and I expressed my condolences, told what was happening, the paperwork and everything. And sometime during it, you could tell that she kinda checked out during the conversation. 

It was it was at that moment that I sat there and just let her talk. Asked her how is she doing? I started saying, yeah, he was, you know, things that I remembered about him. And she, she ended up busting out in tears and was talking about how she'll miss him and everything. And we just had that moment to where she started to wanting to pray and give me a hug and all that. And it was just a great moment where we just kind of sat and comforted each other in this. 

I was someone who knew this patient and we got along pretty well when we were in Heme/Onc and now, to be in this moment, which is technically I guess her final moments with him and alive at that capacity. So the emotions are pretty raw for that. 

So yeah, that was a touching moment… for my first time, like, to have someone that I was familiar with. I'm glad that they were familiar with me through this moment and it just… I'm glad I was able to be there for them. 

We got to the paperwork. That was, you know, like that was very just at the end after the tears have dried and you're able to think again about the business side of it. 

So, yeah. I think that was my sacred moment.

Interview

Nate Houchens (08:04)

I’m here with Jinae Stoudemire, who shared this story of being with a grieving spouse after their loved one had passed, and really just offering that space and presence to allow her the emotional release that she needed in those very raw moments. Thank you for sharing the story, Jinae.

Jinae Stoudemire (08:23)

You're welcome.

Nate Houchens (08:28)

Jinae, I have known you for almost a decade and I feel like, at this point we probably finish each other's um…

Jinae Stoudemire (08:36)

Sandwiches.

Nate Houchens (08:37)

Oh yeah… there you go, sandwiches that's exactly right. 

Jinae Stoudemire (08:39)

You missed. You missed it.

Nate Houchens (08:41)

No that was perfect. 

We know each other well. We have worked together in the VA for almost ten years I think last count and still, I would love to know more about you and I'd love for our listeners to know more about you as well. I wonder if you could tell us about you and about any experiences in your past that maybe led you to this role and perhaps led you to that moment that you described in your story?

Jinae Stoudemire (09:07)

Sure, sure. Hi everyone. I'm gonna say hi as well. Let me, my probably my biggest part of it. Let's just talk about me. I am the middle child of five girls. So shout out to my dad for dealing with us. But that, I I'll say I was like the peacekeeper amongst them all. So that, I have, I've been trained since I was young, keeping a keeping a home together. 

I've been, in college I used to do a lot. High school I used to do a lot too, but I feel like in college… I went to Oakland University, got my Bachelor's in Health Science through a number of thought processing changes. There I had a number of roles that kind of just helped. So I like I was a peer mentor for the cultural… Center for Multicultural Initiatives. And then I was also a resident assistant, as well as like the apartment assistant. So I ended up talking to people a lot. For the good and the bad, which kinda has helped on top of helping my sisters through things, helping my residents through things. That's about where I got a lot of my talking.

And then I first entered the government with… through the Harpers Ferry Job Corps, where I worked with at-risk youth. And I was a resident advisor there as well. So they worked their vocational hours tour in the beginning of the day and then I got them at the end of the day when they, you know, were a little bit more rambunctious, living their life. And that was amazing because you had, I was… You know, we had four dorms there and we had to entertain them, talk to them, give them focused groups. Very similar to college actually, where you had to be that person for them, 'cause you were that adult, ear, that shoulder, whatever they kinda need, that discipline, whatever they needed at that time. 

So I think those experiences probably helped me be willing to have the conversations in these situations or at least being put in uncomfortable situations and knowing I can make it through it. 

But then also I've seen people grieve. I've seen people mad. I've seen people, you know, college days, in not their best moments. And I think that's kinda helped with it on top of it. I think it might just be innate in me. But also, I think those moments of just constantly wanting to be there for people has helped me with that.

Nate Houchens (12:12)

Where do you think that desire to be there for people and to have those tougher conversations comes from? Is it just the fact that you've been doing it this long and sort of repetition, or do you think there's something within you that calls to be able to have these more challenging conversations?

Jinae Stoudemire (12:30)

I wanna say it's something that just kinda calls to me. I've always been that person where you wanna be the person that you need. And so I kinda think about how, what I would need in those type of situations or how how how would I like someone to respond to me type thing if I was going through whatever I was going through at the time. So I think that is my driving force is to try to be a safe place for others.

Nate Houchens (13:02)

I’m pretty sure you were the one that told me about the phrase “life be life-ing sometimes.”

Jinae Stoudemire (13:07)

It do be life-ing.

Nate Houchens (13:08)

And so when, you know, when life be life-ing, it feels like it's so gratifying, I think, for some people to be able to be that shoulder for others. And it sure sounds like that has been the case for you in your past. And frankly, this is, this does not surprise me at all because of how you are in your role now as Administrative Officer for our service. This is what I see every day. This is, you know, there's customer service, but then there's like connection and creating safe spaces and making sure that people feel seen and heard and valued. And that is what you do, I think, with aplomb every day. So anyway, that that's just me giving you a little bit of fan service.

Jinae Stoudemire (13:55)

Thanks, shout out.

Nate Houchens (13:56)

I remember when I was a kid, one of my earlier memories was just my mom and my brother having lots of arguments. You know, they kinda, they kinda got into it every once in a while… and I saw that and there's a big age difference between me and my brother. We're about ten years apart or so. And they would have arguments, and I would see this as a young kid and just be like, How can I make that stop? Right? How can I make how can I, in your words, how can I be the peacemaker? There wasn't anything in particular that sort of told me that this was necessary. It was just sort of a feeling. It was just a… how can I make sure that the people that I care about are feeling well and feeling good about each other and can work through whatever issues they're having. That was always something that called to me, but I it sounds like maybe in your family the same was true.

Jinae Stoudemire (14:48)

Oh yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I'm the person that they call when there's been some form of a dispute or irritation, there's a call for me or I'm the one that comes in and calms them down, either through humor, like… Not gonna lie, I'm probably the most blunt, but everyone seems to take it. So I say it in a way that hasn't, won't offend people. Sometimes people need to hear about themselves. But I'll say it in a way that's not offensive, not judging. I think you've heard me say you gotta live in a judgment free zone, like that judgment free zone is how you get there. And so just letting people, accepting people for where they are at that moment is very important. And, you know, meeting them there as well.

Nate Houchens (15:42)

Most people don't have training to manage their families, but you know, maybe we should. Have you had any sort of like training or instruction about some of these really important skills of being judgment free and approaching with patience and presence?

Jinae Stoudemire (15:59)

Outside of I think that just as a me thing. As somebody who, I think I was judged a lot younger. So it became I don't want to do something that I didn't like. So it kind of just made me very accepting of others. And it and training… it did come like in all of my positions, the peer mentor, we went through like a camp. So there were role playing that happened. So I think those were probably the biggest things back at that point where the resident advisor in college. So the resident advisor and the peer mentor, us doing those role plays helped give me some tools to use during those times. Even at the VA, they talk about like crucial conversations as a book, and they have a class for that here. So I still continue on with different types of training now, but yeah, back then we've had those types of trainings.

Nate Houchens (17:04)

It's so useful to be able to practice some of these conversational pieces, especially with really delicate, really life-altering conversations. It can be so helpful to practice those in a safe and brave space before actually doing it in real life.

Jinae Stoudemire (17:20)

Yeah, you get to do your fumbling through. It's never perfect, but it at least helps.

Nate Houchens (17:28)

Yeah, as a novice podcaster I can really appreciate the desire to have some practice before and before it's kind of, you know, polished up in the editing room, I suppose. There's a good analogy there for practicing these conversations before they actually happen. Too bad I didn't give you that opportunity, huh? This is all on the fly.

Jinae Stoudemire (17:47)

Yeah it is. Yeah it is.

Nate Houchens (18:11)

You mentioned there was this point where the patient's significant other kind of, you said the words checked out. And then you did this wonderful series of skills, I think, the sort of letting her talk, asking her about herself, and then… how powerful to share some memories about this person that you knew beforehand in your other role. What was it that… how did you know to do that?

Jinae Stoudemire (18:42)

It kinda just kinda went into like my gut reaction. I know some people are very uncomfortable in silence, but I've kinda learned silence is powerful. Like you can kind of get what you need from the silence. So when she stops talking or there's a lull and you're like, oh I'm I'm feeling something here. I am, I do, that is a gift of intuition. But you where someone just stops talking mid-sentence and you can just, you take the cue to look at them, read the room, understand there's something going on. 

We already know there's a… it's a difficult conversation, but understanding it. And then just sitting with them, this is goes back to, okay, what would I want during this time for it? Not the apologies, you know, sorry for your loss, but something real where you're like, hey, I I'm I'm I'm right there with you, not to the limit, but let's talk about some good times. How are you? 

I picked up the how are you's and asking people how they are… One, I've realized, I did work in the Heme/Onc department and I used to watch… the patients got a lot of attention. But it was the caregivers that would talk to me and talk about how stressed they were, or you could just see how tired they were after it. And a lot of times you don't hear about the people taking care of the patients because of course they're the patient. They're the one going through whatever it is that they're going through. But I guess that's going through my own things with that… Caregivers, they're put through a lot. They have to live their life. They're going through the emotional parts, and they are dealing with the stress 'cause they have to make sure this person is good and they're worried as well. So just asking people how they are and really just waiting for them to respond helps for that. Yeah.

Nate Houchens (20:58)

Yeah, I love that. And there's a communication skills training that we do at the VA. You know, we talk about responding to emotion with empathy. And one of the skills that we talk about is respect statements. And  I will admit, when I was a resident or a medical student, this wasn't really even on my radar. Like it was it was patient first, right? And really all my focus was on the patient.

And that's kind of what you were describing as well, but how powerful to be able to stop for a moment and offer a respect statement to a caregiver… who is shouldering so much of this intensity, and to say like something along the lines of, I just want to admire just how close you have been and how fervent of an advocate you have been for your husband or for your father or whoever it may be.

Those kinds of statements I tend to use more and more now because I just see the immediate transformation in the person that I say it to. Where they say, wow, thank you. It it's often unspoken, right? But you can tell there's this sort of like, wow, at least a little bit of acknowledgement about all the things that I'm doing.

Jinae Stoudemire (22:15)

They feel seen as well. Yeah. Yeah.

Nate Houchens (22:19)

On a personal note, do you think that people need to undergo some version of challenge or adversity in order to really kind of understand that this is needed? You know what I mean? So what I heard you say was, I treat others like I want to be treated, and I've been in situations where I've wanted that for myself. What about the people that haven't had that sort of life experience or family or resident assistant experience… Do you feel like they are maybe less able to tap into that? Or do you think it's just sort of an innate thing that you can intuit?

Jinae Stoudemire (23:00)

I think it helps to have gone through some version of it and be able to relate it. At no point is anyone going through the same thing that you are, because everyone is an individual and so everyone's lives are gonna be their own. My struggles are gonna be different than your struggles. It's useful to not think that your way is the only way for it. 

And so I think that's more important, like struggle… If you can, if you don't even relate that your struggle is the same, then that's the issue. Or sometimes people say their struggle is the same. If I got through it, you'll get through it, so they minimize it too. So people going through their struggles may not be what's a hundred percent necessary and training is not necessary, but you have to have a, I'm gonna call it humanity to it. You have to be able to empathize and be open to someone else's experience. I think that's probably more important. And if you allow yourself to be open and understanding, like I'm a people watcher. Not on weird stuff. But I like to actually watch people and see how they live and how they think and you and I have a joke of “I ask the questions.” I like to ask questions about people. Be curious about other people and accept what they're telling you. I think is probably gonna get you more than actually any type of training.

Nate Houchens (24:41)

I've seen it over and over again where it just unlocks this trust or connection or whatever you want to call it with the people that you work with or the people around you. When you are curious, and I'm talking to you, when you are curious, not just in the vague sort of abstract, whenever someone is curious… When you are curious with others, I just see this transformation where they're willing to open up with you, they're willing to share their emotional responses with you. It's just a different level when you're able to do that and you do it so well.

Jinae Stoudemire (25:14)

Thanks.

Jinae Stoudemire (25:15)

I like this. This is this is great for my ego.

Nate Houchens (25:19)

I can just keep going. There's more. There's more. 

I only got into this kind of terminology recently. A therapist keeps asking me every once in a while, like, what does it feel like in my body when something happens? And so I'm gonna do what I do best, which is poach other people's questions and make them my own. 

If you can recall, what did it feel like in your body when the wife who had been checked out felt seen and heard and had that sort of emotional release? When you saw that, when you bore witness to that, what did it feel like when there was that shift in tone?

Jinae Stoudemire (25:56)

Before that shift in tone, I was kind of anxious. That's one of the reasons why I'm silent, cause it's like, what do you say in these type of situations? Like, oh my gosh. And remember, this is my first time. So it's like ugghhhh, I don't want to say the wrong thing. You have a goal. Agghhhhh, and it's stupid paperwork, cause my humanity's like, you know. This paperwork is not as important. Her husband just passed, you know? 

So that was all that was going on inside of my body and my mind. So I was kind of tense and just, I already have anxiety. So this was not doing well for me. But it was more so about being there for her at that point. So when I realized that she checked out and it was like, oh no, I this is not about the paperwork at this point. This is something more. I need to turn back to human Jinae and not just workhorse. It's not a, it's not just, okay, sign these documents. I need to turn back to me. Let me go back to being a person. 

And so that's what I did. I kinda just let all the, I need to be professional, I need to say the right thing. I took all that off. So it actually kinda felt like a weight was off at that point. Because it's like, okay, let me just start asking about you. Let me make this a conversation, actually. 

And then we went through, and I cried too because she prayed, she cried, we talked about memories like that. So at this point, she's crying, I'm crying, which sometimes you need a good cry. If you've ever cried where you've been building a pressure, it's healing. So I think in my body what I was feeling. 

And then I'm gonna tell you, she hugged me, like we hugged. And that was amazing. It was like, okay, I did the right thing at that point. And it was a good hug. Like you know the good hugs? It was it was that type of hug where it was like, I think she really needed that. And I was very glad to be that person there for her at that moment. So yeah, it was good. My body felt good.

Nate Houchens (28:24)

It's funny how you can distinguish the good hugs from others. And I know exactly what you're talking about. And I suspect that a lot of people know as well. It's, there's just a different kind of feeling. There's a lot that can be communicated without words. There's a lot that can be communicated in an embrace. And it just reminds me that the ways in which people express what they're going through and also perhaps gratitude, perhaps understanding, perhaps connection… I'm struggling with other words, but like I wonder if she is communicating to you again just how much that was needed and how much it was appreciated.

Nate Houchens (29:28)

It's not in everyone's wheelhouse necessarily to drop the paperwork and the tasks at hand and the work that needs to be done and attend to a person's humanity. To those individuals, I wonder if you would name a practice or a mindset that helps people kind of enter into those kinds of moments with more humanity, with authenticity, with compassion. What are some things that you do or what's one thing that you do or that you would sort of impart to others who may not necessarily feel as comfortable doing these things?

Jinae Stoudemire (30:05)

This is gonna sound possibly weird because I don't know if they're linked because I I kinda think it's a natural thing in me. But something that I do every day or… nope, it's every day, is well, this kind of leads to it, but I try to exude joy. Like I smile, I laugh, like, and I don't hold it back. I think I've laughed here.

I think in this world it's not necessarily looked at as a positive trait all the time, especially in the workforce, to be a bubbly person. It's not to, I walk around singing and this is just me, but I if I feel the joy, I exude it. I don't try to suppress it. And I think that's what it is. You don't gotta go walk around singing. That's not for everybody. But if you feel the need to laugh, laugh. Even if it's… I tell people it's easy to make me laugh. So that's just because I don't hold it back. But if you find something funny, laugh. Now, if you smile, like smiling at yourself once a day, and like just in the mirror as you're brushing your teeth, smile. Be like, hey we're gonna have good day. You know?

And so I… that's just what you do. And I think that's just gonna bring that hey, I'm a human. We are not meant to be robots. We are not meant to be one emotion and that's it. We're meant to experience them all and I may sound more of the happier energy voice right now. But there are times I'm down. And that's okay. I think it's okay for people to go through their emotions and maybe that's the part to remember. Just living your emotions, feel all of your emotions. And that might help you understand other people's emotions as well. I like that. Let's go with that.

Nate Houchens (32:16)

You certainly are a big fan of singing a certain game show’s theme song. I remember, like I'll walk around my house and hum that same theme song and I know it's your effect. So… And my point with that is not just a fun little funky anecdote, but also like you have this indelible effect on the people around you just by doing those little acts of joy. Those laughs, those singing, those points of connection throughout the day. 

And what I'm hearing you say is be authentic to yourself. Don't try to suppress whatever it is that you're feeling at the time. Within reason, of course, we are in a professional environment, but like, you know, if you're feeling a certain way, don't hesitate to express that.

Jinae Stoudemire (33:04)

Yeah. Like don't punch a wall if you mad, but also sit with yourself if you're mad, you know? Like be like, dang, I'm mad. Experience that. And then be like, okay, I'm not mad anymore. I'm gonna go sing. I'm gonna go doodle. People know me as my doodles kind of thing when I just need a moment. Take your moment.

Nate Houchens (33:28)

Uh-huh. Is there anything that you like to doodle most?

Jinae Stoudemire (33:32)

No, it's straight doodle.

Nate Houchens (33:33)

It's literally anything that comes to your mind.

Jinae Stoudemire (33:36)

It’s literally anything. It's so, it's so mindless, but it resets me. It's a reset of just moving myself.

Nate Houchens (33:48)

I'm in a judgment-free zone, so if you said, you know, I like to…

Jinae Stoudemire (33:52)

Doodle cuss words? 

Nate Houchens (33:53)

Yep. If you wanna. Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly right.

Jinae Stoudemire (33:57)

I'm not confirming or denying.

Nate Houchens (33:59)

Nor should you. And I'm definitely not gonna cut this part of the podcast. So that's staying in. 

My paternal uncle, who had married into the family, died when I was fifteen or something, fourteen. I'm terrible with ages and dates. This side of the family that I was not too close to clearly were going through it. And of course, right? One of their loved ones, sort of one of the centers of their lives, had just passed. 

To your earlier point of reading the room and sort of getting at what I would want in this situation if I were them, and also having the wherewithal to know who they are as people, not just knowing what I would want, because that's sort of a self-piece, but also like what they would want. And then tapping into that, I think, is so powerful. And they were, they also liked to laugh. They loved to sort of make jokes and really sort of… I'll say it, immature jokes. 

And, you know, we started playing around with this recording thing, right? It would record our voices. And we would record it forward and then it had a function of what it sounded like played backward. And so we would record our voices forward. Then we would play it backward and we would try to record the same sound as it sounded backward and then flip it and see if it sounded the same. By the way, Jimmy Fallon stole this from me. I think I just saw an episode. I just saw an episode of Jimmy Fallon and he did this same exact damn thing that I did. And I feel like I missed out on like a million dollar opportunity. And this is, this that one thing is why I'm not a late night talk show host. That's the only thing. 

Jinae Stoudemire (35:50)

That’s the only thing.

Nate Houchens (35:51)

Yeah. But when we did that, we would say goofy things, reverse it, try to record it in reverse. And it was just so asinine and so silly at like right after, very shortly after my uncle had passed. And yet at that moment, that's what I think they needed. And in fact, they came back after the fact and said, I'm so glad you were there. I'm so glad we got a chance to laugh together. That's what we needed. 

I mean, like that that is… I didn't know what I was doing. Like I was just doing what I thought felt good in the moment and what it seemed like other people were yearning for. And it sure sounds like you had some s similar examples, including the story.

Jinae Stoudemire (36:35)

Exactly, exactly.

Nate Houchens (36:39)

Tell me a little bit more about like what you're up to now. So I know you as like the guru, the Administrative Officer, the link that connects the entire service that I work in together. Really the person, the sort of indispensable person in the service. But what else do you do? What kinds of new endeavors or passions do you have on your plate?

Jinae Stoudemire (37:03)

So I've kind of accepted that this is probably a good look for me. And I've accepted that while Administrative Officer is great and I love working in the hospital in this capacity, I do really enjoy people and talking to them and like I said, I'm curious about them. 

So I am, on the side, a life coach and intimacy coach. But we're focusing on like the life coaching, which kinda falls right into this where my focus is on like building confidence, self-trust, and just accepting yourself for who you are in that moment. Get to your goal, sure. But knowing yourself I think helps you get through life so much easier without that added stress of comparison. Stress of I should be this and this is what I think. Like let's work on who you are as a person and get you to just embrace yourself. 

I've created this thing kind of right on par with that. It's a women's group, called The Honest Room where we have honest conversations and I, it's, we ask harder questions, we as in me, ask harder questions to get them to start thinking, to start just thinking and seeing where they are in their lives and just start building that trust. Things like, hey, what's where's somewhere you need to have compassion in your life? You know, what's a version of you that you need to apologize to? Things like that. 

And so it's good. There's some laughing, some jokes, some good times, some bad times. I think it gives those women a moment to just let their guard down 'cause once again, safe space, judgment free zone. You can be vulnerable. There's times where I allow myself to be vulnerable because I'm not gonna ask them to do anything I wouldn't do. Equal exchange of energy. So that's pretty much what I am working on now. It's gonna be great. Yay.

Nate Houchens (39:19)

That's really exciting. And I'm so glad that you're doing this kind of work. For all the reasons we've already talked about, you're really well suited for it. And also to sort of role model that vulnerability and that sort of intimacy with other people who you may not know as well, I think is really powerful. Thank you for doing that. 

Jinae Stoudemire (39:40)

Thank you.

Nate Houchens (39:41)

And I might sign up for life coaching if you're at all interested in it. I feel like I'm still comparing myself to others and finding inadequacies of all sorts of different kinds. So you know a little bit more self-acceptance is something that I could personally sign up for.

Jinae Stoudemire (39:57)

Oh yeah, definitely. We’ll work on it together.

Nate Houchens (40:18)

For listeners who are hearing your story and who may feel unsure or inadequate about what to do when they want to be there for someone else's grief, what would you want them to kind of take away from your story?

Jinae Stoudemire (40:34)

I don't know if I've a hundred percent said this, but I think the thing to remember is that you're not there to fix it. You're not there to give a solution. You're there… the best thing you can do for them is just be there for them. Like, get out of your own way. If you're feeling uncomfortable or anything. If they need to be just… if they need to just sit in silence, sit there with them. If they need a laugh, see a joke for it. A lot of times if they need to cry, hug, be there. Just be there for them, but don't try to fix it to make yourself feel less uncomfortable for that. I think that's probably the biggest thing. 

Sometimes you can just ask people what they need and they will tell you whether they need to talk, silence. Let me, let's go out and have a good time to get my mind off of it. Putting that person first is what's essential in this.

Nate Houchens (41:43)

Such important words of wisdom, regardless of the context. I can think of situations in which family benefits from that, friends, colleagues, people that you really don't even know that well, that you're just meeting for the first or second time. Allowing yourself to kind of let go of steering the way that the conversation unfolds is, for me, has been transformative in a lot of different ways. 

It's so interesting that the “fix it” sort of mentality is so antithetical, it just leads to the wrong thing every time. So I should say this, this is a very personal feeling. I don't mean to project it onto others. But when people try to fix it or provide “solutions” to issues that I'm expressing, or concerns, or emotional responses that I'm expressing, it has the opposite effect. I very much feel like, okay, this is not what I need in this moment, this is not helpful, and you're not hearing me. You have tapped into how not to do that and how really just to be there and be silent or be present or be funny or whatever.

Jinae Stoudemire (42:54)

Yeah. My, like my sisters just completely not off topic but they're but my sisters and I, when we do call, we've, when we're calling we're like, I need to vent. Like we've kinda just kinda even just telling people or people are happening, telling their story and then the person listening will be like, Are you just telling me this? Are you venting? Do you want advice? Like, tell me which way to go on this will help me know what I'm listening for. 

Like and it's okay 'cause then we're not getting when that doesn't happen, it becomes a same thing. You're not listening. I didn't even want advice. I was just telling I was just telling you.

Like there's this video that came up in one of the classes that I was in called “It's Not About the Nail.” Have any of you, if anybody who hasn't seen it, watch it. Like go on YouTube and just type in “It's not about the nail.” Essentially a lady… Two people having a conversation and the lady's like, oh I have a headache. Oh, my head hurts so bad. Oh, goodness gosh. And the person next to her is like, you think you should probably take that nail out of your head? And the person and the person's like, “It's not about the nail!” Because they didn't want a solution. They just wanted to be heard. 

So I think… That has stuck with me for years since I’ve seen it 'cause it's so profound. Like, you know what? It could be an obvious solution, and the person does not want to hear it. 'Cause that's not what they're looking for. And that's where you gotta get out of your way and be like, what does this person need from me at this point? Not to fix the issue, but what did this person need from me? And why are they telling me this? Watch the video. It's great.

Nate Houchens (44:49)

Yeah, I remember that video very, very fondly. And it really captures such an important way to be. 

Here's my idea for the office. I feel like we should… I don't think it's hats necessarily, but I think maybe like a sash or some kind of visual indicator of like what I need in that moment, you know. I can put on my “vent” hat or I can put on my “I need you to help me problem solve” hat, you know? 

And then it's just, then you, then it's like the person doesn't even have to ask. Let me get in the habit of asking and doing better about that. But I also feel like maybe for those who work closely with each other, like we do, sometimes a hat may be helpful too.

Jinae Stoudemire (45:31)

Just throw the hat in the office before we even say anything.

Nate Houchens (45:34)

That's the warning shot. Yeah. I'm gonna throw my hat in the office. It says vent, and you can just know that when I come in there, it's time it's a time for me to just unload. 

What else would you like to share with the audience, Jinae?

Jinae Stoudemire (45:52)

Mmmm… I think being an authentic person, putting others first is useful in this, in this time. I'll pause in case you want to take this out. And this has nothing to do with the grief, but just about the state of the world. 

Right now there's a red pill versus blue pill. Have you guys seen that? If everybody takes a… Oh, it's red button, not pill. Red button versus blue button. 

Nate Houchens (46:20)

Shout out to The Matrix.

Jinae Stoudemire (46:22)

Exactly. So if you, if you push the red button, you live. If fifty percent of the humanity pushes the blue button, everybody lives. If it's less than fifty percent that pushes it, everybody who pushes the red button lives. There is this huge thing going on in the internet where everybody's like, push the red button because it guarantees that you'll live. Whereas if you push the blue button… Unless it's fifty percent. So you're kind of you're counting on others to save your life. Whereas the red, you're guaranteed living. 

I cannot get past… I would be a blue button pusher 'cause I can't get past. I can't get past why you wouldn't want to save humanity. But I don't have an individualistic frame of mind. But there's some people who are like, you gotta think about yourself. And if everybody pushes it, then everybody lives. There's no issue.

But I'm voting for humanity, I guess you can say. So I'm gonna push the blue button and see. And there's hope. Like it's a very convincing argument, but you can't let the individualism sway you or just looking out for yourself. Look out for others as well. So I just think that's very,,, it's on my mind.

Nate Houchens (47:46)

Yeah. Yeah. I remember a moral debate... It's been a minute since I've seen the Dark Knight. People on this podcast, if they pay it even a little bit of attention, recognize how much of a comic book dork I am. And so the Dark Knight has something like that as well, with the ship about to explode and Joker machinations and so on and so forth. 

But like yeah, I get what you're saying. There's this debate over whether to be selfish or whether to cooperate and sort of have collective survival. 

There is so much to… boy, as the kids say, there's a lot to unpack there. I feel like there's there is so many different directions that we could take. But what comes immediately to mind is whether or not there's some geographic interesting trends here. I think about sort of individualism and how that has been bolstered up as this wonderful facet of the US institution, you know? And how you know, just getting through as an individual is this sort of… I don't know where I'm going with this, but clearly like a very much a positive in the US version. Whereas I think when I've traveled to other countries, it's not like that at all. There's so much community, there's so much tight knit closeness.

Jinae Stoudemire (49:10)

The culture of community.

Nate Houchens (49:12)

Yeah. Exactly right. And so, I do wonder if this is a more of a dilemma in the US compared to elsewhere. But it's a fascinating conversation.

Jinae Stoudemire (49:23)

Fascinating. Like I think I saw one of the arguments was if you're pushing the blue, it's because you're faking to be a good person. And it was like, wait, what? Because they're like everyone is looking out for themselves. This was a United US person, but it's like, wait, no, wait, wait, what? How did how did that, the two don't equate. Or it could just be a good person who's voting, who's, you know, like, hey, I'm cheering for humanity here. Like we're all gonna be like fifty percent. All we have to have is fifty percent. And everybody lives if we all just band together and do what, and care about others. Essentially, let's just care about others.

Nate Houchens (50:11)

Spoken like a true peacemaker.

Jinae Stoudemire (50:13)

There we go. Boom.

Nate Houchens (50:18)

Jinae, I've taken up a lot of your time today. I really appreciate you coming on to talk about your early experiences as an AOD, that really transformative first moment of sharing space with a grieving spouse, and then sort of your thoughts and endeavors that you've been into afterward. Thank you for spending your time and sharing that with us.

Jinae Stoudemire (50:41)

Thanks for having me, Nate.

Nate Houchens (50:44)

All right. Take care and see you soon. Probably in the next, you know, ten seconds, twenty feet away. 

Jinae Stoudemire (50:51)

All right. Bye.

Nate Houchens (50:53)

Take care.

Postlude

Nate Houchens (51:10)

We would love for you to be a part of this movement, and we would be honored to hear your story. If you have experienced a moment of grace, connection, or empathy that changed you, we invite you to submit it for consideration to be shared on Boundless Moments by sharing, you not only contribute to a collective celebration of human connection, you may also inspire others to recognize and cherish the sacred moments in their own lives. To discover more about sacred moments and to share your own story, please visit sacredmomentsinitiative.org.

This episode of boundless moments was produced, edited, and mixed by Nathan Houchens. Our program manager is Jessica Ameling, and our publishing and social media manager is Rachel Ehrlinger. Our podcast is made possible by the Sacred Moments Initiative, a humanistic project whose aim is to study, catalog, and share sacred moments. Learn more at sacredmomentsinitiative.org. Boundless Moments is also made possible by donations from listeners like you. Thank you so much for supporting our work in sharing sacred moment stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts and drop us a rating or review to help others connect with us. I'm your host, Nathan Houchens. Thank you for joining and until next time, be well.